Apr 8, 2:08 PM
I've, recently, commented on a Quora post that you've commented on. The post is about facts and religion. I'm not trying to start any sort of argument. However, because you seem to value facts and logic, I think it's important that I make you aware of my response to that post.
As I've said, I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm making you aware of my response because this topic is extraordinarily important, and because you seem to value facts and evidence.
Apr 10, 9:58 PM
OK, I've never said reading the bible would make you an atheist. But for many people it has.
Apr 11, 5:18 PM
Christ said that, upon hearing the gospel, there are four different ways, in which, people will respond to it. Three of those types of responses are negative; ending in their eventual rejection of him. Only one of the responses, is a correct, positive one.
Some will reject Christ instantly. Others will accept his teaching, but choose to fall away; due to a shallow faith. Others will recognize the teaching as true, but won't follow, because it's easier not to. Finally, some will accept him, choose to follow him, and store up their treasures in Heaven; to varying degrees.
I say all of this in order to agree with you; that no one really flocks to Jesus because of his rhetoric. In fact, the Bible teaches that people chose to stop following him, because what he said was too weird, strange, or difficult to listen to. This underscores the fact that Christ got the world's attention, and gained freakish fame, not because of what he said, but because of what he did. He performed miracles.
All of this should cause every honest person to seriously consider these facts. It's a hot-button topic, but the reality is profound.
Apr 15, 9:51 PM
Other religious figures also performed miracles before and after the Christian religion. Why are all those false? Hindu, Greek gods, Egyptian gods, Persian, etc. They make the exact same claims.
Apr 15, 9:51 PM
Islam, Muslim, etc
Apr 16, 10:47 AM
If others have performed miracles, then why such a lackluster response from the world? You say that others have done it. However, I don't know their names. Neither do most people. If what you say is true, then the world would have responded appropriately; as it did with Jesus.
Because these so-called claims didn't rock the world, we have no reason to believe that they're legitimate. A lack of fame is exactly what I'd expect from a fraud.
Apr 16, 8:37 PM
Okay, how about miracles in other non-Christian religions which predate Christianity? Egyptian, Hindu, Mithras, Hebrew, etc?
Apr 16, 8:38 PM
So the most popular religion wins the truth?
Apr 16, 8:39 PM
And remember, the Christian is in the minority.
Apr 16, 8:40 PM
About 30% of the world is Christian. That's definitely in the minority
Apr 16, 8:42 PM
The "Jesus" myth just used and rehashed elements from previous religions. Only evangelical Christians deny this.
Apr 16, 9:36 PM
Why are you so interested in "witnesses" names when the Bible said Jesus appeared to 500 at once? No names there? Right? What about modern day "witnesses" who are alive and claim to see the lockness monster, Bigfoot, ufo's, faith healings, astrology, psychic readings, other non Christian gods, spirits, etc? I assume you dismiss those "witnesses" as nonsense, correct?
Apr 16, 9:41 PM
So if the claims become "famous", it's probably true? Is that really your criteria for determining which "story" is most likely true? This is why secular rational people get annoyed by you silly religious people with your nonsense.
Apr 16, 10:16 PM
What reason, do I have, to believe that any of those other claims are legitimate? Without proof, or evidence, the default is to believe that something that extraordinary, couldn't have happened.
It's just as you've pointed out. Claims, like that, with no evidence, are likely to be myths. What's different about Jesus, is that we do have evidence. The world's response is powerful evidence. It's what makes the global time reference so important, and noteworthy.
What happens when a guy walks around in public, performing miracles? What happens when he heals countless people, raises some of them from death, and commands nature, with his words? History has shown us. The world gets turned upside down.
We may read about extraordinary, distant claims, in ancient literature, and figure those things never actually happened. After all, if they had, it would have caused a turning point in history. It's not something that would have been forgotten, or overlooked. It would have, dramatically, changed the world. The man, who performed those miracles, would become a household name for the rest of time. The world would take notice.
With Christ, this is what we have. We have a global time reference to the birth of a person. We have unanimity, and a complete consensus, from the people of that day. Everyone, during Christ's time, agree that he performed miracles. There are no dissenting voices, from the people of that day, on whether or not he did. Not all chose to follow him, but they all agree that he performed miracles.
Without this profound reality -- without something as unprecedented as a global time reference to the birth of a man -- I'd have reason to be skeptical. We all would. It's the very reason that Jesus performed those miracles. He did it in order to distinguish himself, and show what happens when someone ACTUALLY does the impossible. He did it to prove that he is who he claims to be. He, blatantly, stated this, while he was here.
If others had actually done this, before, then the world would have been changed by it. We'd have a global time reference to the birth of someone else, but we don't.
I've had this conversation, multiple times, with people who have a view that mimics yours. Rather than have that same conversation, again and again, I've decided to point towards one, well-discussed, conversation that I've had with another Quora user.
You can read that conversation by visiting the following link:
Discerning Spiritual Blindness
This link was, originally, designed for Christians. However, I've found that it's become very helpful to everyone.
My hope is that you'll take the time to visit this link, and read my conversation with Rick Brown; another Quora user who has made the same claims that you make. This will prevent us from having a redundant conversation, and it'll address all of your claims.
Apr 16, 10:38 PM
No. Not at all. You have claims from ancient people describing religious events. That's common in religions way before the Christian mythology. The "Jesus" stories are literally taken right out of pagan pre-Christian elements. Healing, water into wine, walking on water, coming back to life, etc. All elements from previous mythology. Christianity is an obvious rehash of the worn out old "dying and rising god" theme. No evidence more than any other religious claims of miracles at all. If you believe all the claims of the Christian religion then using your logic, impossible to rule out other ancient claims as nonsense. And aren't witnesses alive to talk to with others saying the same thing with video tape better evidence than the ancient ones? The founder of Christianity only saw Jesus in a vision!!!! Really?? You would immediately dismiss such statements if other religions said that as completely nonsense. ANCIENT PEOPLE CLAIMING SOMEONE WAS HEALED? Really? Ask Benny Hinn followers, he does that in every show!
Apr 16, 10:40 PM
Can't help noticing jesus never restored a missing leg or arm. And no silly Christian nut pastor ever will.
Apr 16, 10:49 PM
What about Mormon witnesses today? I assume you will immediately dismiss them as nonsense, correct? How about Muslims who say that Mohamed talked to them and appeared in a vision? Once again, you will immediately dismiss that as nonsense. What's with your double standards?
Apr 17, 1:02 AM
I'm very passionate about this topic. It's one of the reasons I've spent so much time writing about it. I, sincerely, believe that there is no other topic that is more important. This is because the implications have eternal consequence.
Because of all of this, I'm eager to talk to anyone who is willing to take this topic seriously and thoroughly ponder these truths. However, as I've stated in the link that I've given, those types of conversations can only be had with people who are honest and sincere. It can only happen if a person's mind isn't closed off to reason.
This is a hot-button topic, and it's very easy for two people to argue, without actually getting anywhere. It's the whole reason why I chose to write the content in the provided link. It truly does address issues, and it provides a technique that allows anyone the chance to determine whether or not a conversation can be had. However, it only works if a person reads it. If you're not willing to take the time to read it, then I'm not sure we'll be able to have a conversation. I say this as a matter of practicality. You're bringing up issues that I've already addressed. Repeating myself is silly, since I suspect that we both value our own time.
Because you brought it up, I'll conclude by offering a link to an article that I wrote about healing amputees.
Again, it addresses the question that you've raised, but you'll have to take the time to read it.
I truly hope that you're a person who chooses to take this topic seriously, and that you'll visit these links. They provide answers and responses to the stances that you've subscribed to. If you really are interested in knowing how I respond to what you've written, then I trust you'll take the time to read them. If you're not interested, then there's no reason for us to go back and forth.
As for me, I've run into this scenario more times than I'd like to admit. In the past, I've spent weeks, engaged in the same conversation that you're, now, beginning to replicate. The links are designed to prevent me from going through the same thing, again. I'll heed my own advice by doing what I've already written about. Here's that link, one last time:
Discerning Spiritual Blindness
I wish you the best with your future.
Apr 17, 6:48 PM
I've already read your text. Obviously, "spiritual blindness" only applies to non-Christians religions, correct? As per your definition, only religious Christians are capable of seeing the one true god of course!
Apr 17, 6:50 PM
And stop your silly charade of acting like you wish me the best. That's such a lie.
Apr 18, 11:07 AM
You say "as per your definition". This isn't my definition. It's what the Bible teaches. This is what Jesus taught. As a Christian, my goal is to merely echo what Jesus said. As I've stated at the beginning of what I wrote, the notion of spiritual blindness is described in 2nd Corinthians 4:1-4, and Matthew 13:11-15.
As for wishing you the best with your future, I'm completely sincere. I truly do hope that, one day, you'll choose to follow Christ.
The Bible is clear that God is not willing that any should perish, but that he wants all to repent and live. At the end of Matthew 13:15 -- one of the verses that is provided in the links, above -- it says "Otherwise, their eyes would see, their ears would hear, their minds would understand, and they would turn to me, says God, and I would heal them."
One of the greatest, most defining characteristics of God and Christ, is his extraordinary love for humans, and his desire for all to repent and live. His love is extreme, his patience is great, and his grace and mercy are unparalleled. However, this requires repentance, on our part -- a willingness to turn to him. I'm not lying when I say that I hope you'll choose to do that. However, this is only a decision that you can make.
I can't be more sincere when I say that I wish you the best. If this is how I feel, I can only imagine how much more Christ wants this.
Apr 19, 8:20 PM
Actually, you should study your bible a little more. The Jesus mythical character actually hates non Christians so much to the point if ANYONE doesn't believe in him they go to hell for eternity. And stop your lying that you "wish me the best"!
Apr 19, 8:24 PM
So before the "jesus" mythology everyone went to hell? Or is there some type of loophole where some people previous to that made it heaven?
Apr 20, 12:12 AM
Christ is the means by which all people get into Heaven -- including those who lived before he came to Earth.
In Acts 3, Peter explains that the coming of Christ was prophesied, all the way back to Moses. As he explains, all of the Old Testament prophets prophesied that a savior would come. In Isaiah 53, the prophecy is so detailed that it described how Jesus would suffer.
The book of Hebrews does an excellent job explaining the purpose of the Old Testament sacrifices, and how they were a picture of how Jesus would become a sacrifice for all mankind. Hebrews, chapters 9 and 10, explains this thoroughly.
So, no. People who lived before the coming of Christ, didn't just go to Hell. They were saved by faith, just as people are, today. The only difference is that they placed their hope in God's promise of a coming Messiah. We place our hope in that same Messiah, who has already come.
As for God hating people; you couldn't be more wrong. It's true that Jesus is the only way to Heaven, and that, without him, a person will have to pay the price for their own sin. That price is Hell. However, salvation is open to everyone. It's free. It's not something that any of us has to earn. A person, merely, accepts it, as a free gift.
Because Christ has paid the price for redemption, no one has to go to Hell. Hell is a choice, just as Heaven is a choice.
That's another thing. People can spend a lot of time thinking about Hell; which is wise. However, it's also valuable to think about Heaven.
God has offered all of mankind the opportunity to live in a perfect place of peace where there is no grief. Jesus made it clear that Heaven is worth sacrificing everything for. I'm not sure that we can completely comprehend the good things that God has in store for those who trust him.
I, also, have to go back to something that you keep claiming. Over and over again, you refer to Jesus as a myth. You say that you've read what I wrote about spiritual blindness. Did you also follow the conversation that I had with Rick Brown -- that other Quora user?
I keep mentioning that conversation because it really does highlight the line in the sand. Everyone has to make a choice, concerning what they think about Jesus. That conversation with Rick, forces a person to grapple with the impact that Christ has had on this world. It's why I chose to be consistent in forcing Rick to explain what, he thought, really happened. A person's response to that, is very revealing. It allows me to know whether or not a person is open to reason, or if they, simply, want to argue and ridicule Christ.
So, if you haven't done so, I hope you'll read that conversation, and note the questions that I've asked Rick. He tried, vehemently, to explain how a man, who, either didn't exist, or didn't perform miracles, ended up being a man, to which, we, now, have a global time reference to his birth.
The revelation is in the details. I asked him to give a detailed account of how a lie about a man performing miracles, could have taken off, and transformed the world the way that it did. As I've said, many times before, I don't want to have that same, lengthy conversation again, with you. So, I hope you'll read through that conversation, and explain whether or not you agree with Rick. Do you believe that all of the people, in the time of Jesus, decided to play a practical joke on all of us? Did they lie about the miracles? If so, how did they get that lie to spread?
Rick truly bent over backwards -- trying to explain all of it as a lie, mass deception, etc. It all easily fell apart when he tried to explain the details of what he thought happened. So, it would be really helpful if you'd be willing to say whether or not you agree with Rick, concerning what you think happened.
As for my sincerity, pertaining to you and your future; you really have to remember the attitude of Christ. While he was being tortured, murdered, and nailed to a cross, he prayed to God, saying "Forgive them, father, they don't know what they're doing." It blows my mind to think about it. What he did, certainly, isn't intuitive human behavior.
So, even though, at this time, you may hate Jesus, he still loves you. It's not a lie that he wants you to turn to him. As a follower of Christ, I know that he wants me to have the same attitude.
I've encountered, and have had conversations with, lots of people online. In my experience, most of them aren't willing to take this topic seriously, and they just want to argue. They enjoy ridiculing Christ, etc. However, I know that there are some people out there, who are sincere, pertaining to facts, and they want to know the truth. For them, spiritual blindness may not always be their permanent state.
The testimonies of Josh McDowell and Gary Habermas, are great examples. I have YouTube videos of them, linked at the end of my "Why Logic Fails" article. Here's a popular one of Josh McDowell:
If you've followed my entire conversation with Rick Brown, you will have encountered it. To me, this is a powerful video, for different reasons. In this case, it reminds me that there are some people who will turn to God, even after having a hard heart. For this reason, I'm quick to point out these truths and facts about our reality, and how Christ has turned the world upside down. It's true that many are spiritually blind, and may choose to remain that way. However, for others, their eyes are opened, and they turn to Christ.
I do wish you the best. However, when it comes to having a conversation, it's important for me to know what your motives, and intentions, are. Paul knew when to walk away. More than once, he mentioned the importance of avoiding useless arguments. Here's another portion of scripture, where he talks about this:
So, I certainly don't want to have a back-and-forth argument with someone who just wants to troll. There's no value in it. That's why it's really important for me to understand whether or not you maintain that Jesus is a myth, that recorded history is a lie, and that the global time reference is the result of an extreme practical joke -- courtesy of the people who were alive during the time of Christ. Knowing where you definitively stand, allows me to know whether or not it's time to walk away.
Even if I have to walk away, I still hope that your mind will change, sometime later in life. This is what has happened with Josh McDowell, and others.
Apr 24, 8:10 PM
How about videos from Lawrence Kraus? And, logic doesn't fail. As far as "christ" being "tortured and killed", that's mythology.
Apr 25, 1:48 AM
You say that logic doesn't fail. I'll agree that logic SHOULDN'T fail. However, I've seen it fail on multiple occasions. My extensive conversation with Rick Brown, is a clear example of this.
As I've said, multiple times before, his view is that Jesus didn't perform miracles. He believes that all of the people, who lived during the time of Christ, participated in a mass-scale, orchestrated lie, in order to achieve a facade of peace and emotional healing. According to my conversation with him, he believes that the people of the past didn't witness miracles, but lied, instead, and all claimed that Christ performed miracles, even though he didn't.
I wanted to make sure that I understood Rick correctly; since such a view, simply isn't rooted in logic. He then tried to clarify that they unwittingly participated in this massive lie. When I tried to get him to explain how that could have taken place, in detail, he couldn't provide a rational explanation. This is because there isn't one.
As a result, a stance like that, is proof that logic is able to fail. It can fail, when it comes to attempting to have a conversation about this topic.
This is where Rick and I, came to an impasse. It's why I wanted to find out, definitively, whether or not you believe the same thing that he does. I wanted to be clear that we had come to an impasse, before ending our conversation.
Based on your last response, it seems to me that you agree with Rick, and believe that an entire era of people chose to fabricate a massive lie, with no credible motive. Based on that view, some of those people even chose to die for that lie -- knowing that it was a lie. It's not a logical belief.
In any case, as I've said many times before, I'm trying not to have a redundant conversation. As long as you adhere to the same belief that Rick does, we, too, have come to that same impasse.
Because of the impasse, I want to make it clear that this will be my last post. It's necessary that I state this. That way, should you continue to post, you can know that my choice to not respond, isn't because your claim of Christ being a myth, hasn't be refuted. It's due to the fact that, in light of the logical evidence, which shows this refutation, there's nothing more that I can say. If you've read my conversation with Rick, you can see that that conversation, also, had to end in the same way.
As for Lawrence Kraus, I hope you'll understand that the same scenario applies to him; along with anyone else who chooses not to believe and accept history. I would pose the exact same questions to him, that I've posed to you, Rick, and anyone else who claims that the Bible isn't true, or that Christ didn't perform miracles. It's a repeating conversation; which is why I've written about it. My hope is that every non-believer will be willing to read my conversation with Rick Brown, and that they'll attempt to give a detailed, credible account of how the whole world could have chosen to reference all of time to the birth of man -- all the while, claiming that history is predacated on a lie from an entire era of civilization.
If Kraus is honest about facts and logic, then I'd love for him to take the same challenge that I've posed to you, Rick, and many others. My hope is that he'd visit the link, and take the challenge seriously:
Discerning Spiritual Blindness
I know that you don't think I'm sincere. However, I still do hope that, someday, your view will change. This isn't like most other topics, where a person's disagreements don't really matter. It really is important.
Take care.
May 8, 9:02 PM
What "view"? I don't have a "view". What about other non-Christian religions? I assume those very unlucky people need to change their views also?
May 22, 12:40 PM
Can't help noticing you won't answer that.
May 22, 1:48 PM
I've already answered that question; starting in the third post that I've made in this conversation.
It's just as I've said, before. There's nothing more to say. All I can do is do what I've already talked about -- end the dialog, just as Paul did when he came to this impasse. Once again, this is described in Acts 19:8-10, as already described in the following link:
Discerning Spiritual Blindness
There's nothing different about this particular conversation, and, as stated in the above link, it's run its typical course.
From now on, I'll resist the urge to continue posting; since I've already stated that the last post would be my last.
May 22, 2:54 PM
You didn't even come close to answering the question. BTW, using the bible as evidence for christianity is completely circular logic.
May 22, 2:55 PM
reasoning, not logic
May 22, 2:58 PM
I can easily use the quran to show that islam is correct.
May 25, 6:44 PM
Ok. Who is "spiritually blind"? Who are you referring as spiritually blind?
May 25, 6:46 PM
I assume anyone who isn't a Christian is "spiritually blind"?
May 29, 4:25 PM
Why won't you answer the question?